Since I'm just kind of jumping around anyway, I thought this might be an interesting topic. There are two basic camps for this basic question of "who will be saved?" Although, truth be told there are probably as many different nuances as there are people. The two basic camps are the following 1. God determines who will be saved before the creation of the world and 2. People are allowed to choose whether they will accept God's salvation or not.
Now, those may be the two basic groups, but there are a lot of other groups as well. Some would say that the only way a person can be saved is if they call explicitly on the name of Jesus Christ and admit that he is the only way to salvation. Some would disagree and say that if someone has never heard of Jesus Christ, but honestly and sincerely seeks the "creator God" and trusts him for her salvation, then she will be saved. Then some would say that God's grace will be given to all in the same way that Adam's sin was attributed to all.
Pretty much everyone who falls into the first group, will also advocate the exclusiveness view, and the universal view. If God has ordained who will be saved, then he has also ordained who will hear the gospel. Or he would have ordained that it didn't matter who hears the gospel, he will unilaterally save them anyway. There are scriptures that seem to support all of this.
However, I believe that the overall witness of the scripture supports view #2 and the view that God can forgive someone for not having the opportunity to hear of his providence. I think the ultimate revelation of who God is is in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus makes it pretty clear that the main issue for following him is commitment, not knowledge. Otherwise Peter would have been disqualified quite a bit, as well as every other disciple. This does not mean that disciples should give up on orthodoxy, but as they will not truly achieve it, it is not requisite to be saved.
In addition, the scriptures that indicate that God desires all to be saved stand in direct opposition to the belief that God has chosen who will be saved and who won't. In addition, the life of Jesus himself flies directly in the face of all that. Jesus was not selective about who could know him and who couldn't.
Obviously there is tons of disagreement on this. There are volumes upon volumes on each side of the aisle. I think the main thing is that I cannot honestly conceive of Jesus choosing some to be sent to heaven and some to be sent to hell. Some can, but to steal a line from Dr. Olson, "I have a hard time distinguishing between God and the devil if God chooses some for eternal punishment."
1.25.2009
1.18.2009
Omniscience and Omnipotence
I wanted to do a few on what I think about scripture, the bible, etc, but if I wanted to be stuck doing that for long blocks of time I would try to write a book (which I would like to do, but I would also like to win the lottery, so you know...). Anyway, I dunno if it was a request to discuss these two loaded words or just a thought about something that we might overlook a lot, but I think those two words are very worth discussing.
Oftentimes in our churches in the twentieth and now twenty-first century we often ascribe to God the qualities of being both omniscient and omnipotent. The problem with that, is that neither word is found in our scriptures. Sure, the basics of the ideas may be there, but not as clearly as many would like us to believe. So again, this is mostly a place for me to think my thoughts through and a place to get some feedback from friends and internet theologians. Feel free to contribute. Or not.
Omniscience: The general idea here is that God knows everything. The typical belief within Christianity, at least in American Christianity as I can't speak for the rest of the world, is that God knows everything including what will happen, what could happen, and what would happen. I think that if we are going to call God "omniscient" we need to nuance that word a little bit. The problem is that we are ascribing to God something that he does not really make clear in the scriptures he has given us.
Let me explain. First of all, I don't think God knows things that are not true. Second I don't think that God knows exactly what a free-agent will do in a general circumstance. Let me put it this way, God does not know the DNA of a unicorn. He cannot know it. There is no such thing, so there is no reason for God to know it. God only knows fact. God does not lie and there is no lie in him. God can know the lie that someone tells, and if someone wrote a book describing the DNA of a unicorn, God could know that too, but that does not mean that God would know the actual DNA of a unicorn, just the speculative one. I dunno if that makes any sense, but it did in my head.
Second, in the same way, I don't think it is possible to know what free creatures will do before they have chosen it. If we are truly free to do either A or B, then I think it would be impossible for God to know. He may know which is more likely, but I don't think he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt. There are some exceptions. I think God does sometimes take away our free will and force us to decide certain things. I think he never does this in the case of salvation, meaning, I think God always allows us to chose our eternal destiny. But I do think if God wants me to go to Arby's tomorrow, God will make me go to Arby's tomorrow. There are tons of places in scripture that seem to indicate that God does not know how a people will choose, when God changes his mind, or God hoped something would happen but it did not. There are other places that seem to disagree. A person must give priority to one or the other, then interpret the one he or she didn't choose in light of the one with priority.
So I think God knows everything that is possible to know, but God does not know those things that are impossible. (Cue the Calvinist argument that I am putting God in a box)
Omnipotence: We also often have a difficult time understanding this word. In principle, I agree that God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful. I think God can do anything he wants to do (so long as it is possible). But that is all too often taken to mean that God is the ultimate micro-manager. God has decreed when I will die, when I will eat next, even when this blog will end. That is not, however, the God that you find in the bible. God allows people to have choice, to do meaningful things, to matter.
So, since this blog is too long as it is, I will stop for today by saying that God could micro-manage in that way, the scripture seems pretty clear that God does not. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, just not in the way all too many people ascribe to him.
Oftentimes in our churches in the twentieth and now twenty-first century we often ascribe to God the qualities of being both omniscient and omnipotent. The problem with that, is that neither word is found in our scriptures. Sure, the basics of the ideas may be there, but not as clearly as many would like us to believe. So again, this is mostly a place for me to think my thoughts through and a place to get some feedback from friends and internet theologians. Feel free to contribute. Or not.
Omniscience: The general idea here is that God knows everything. The typical belief within Christianity, at least in American Christianity as I can't speak for the rest of the world, is that God knows everything including what will happen, what could happen, and what would happen. I think that if we are going to call God "omniscient" we need to nuance that word a little bit. The problem is that we are ascribing to God something that he does not really make clear in the scriptures he has given us.
Let me explain. First of all, I don't think God knows things that are not true. Second I don't think that God knows exactly what a free-agent will do in a general circumstance. Let me put it this way, God does not know the DNA of a unicorn. He cannot know it. There is no such thing, so there is no reason for God to know it. God only knows fact. God does not lie and there is no lie in him. God can know the lie that someone tells, and if someone wrote a book describing the DNA of a unicorn, God could know that too, but that does not mean that God would know the actual DNA of a unicorn, just the speculative one. I dunno if that makes any sense, but it did in my head.
Second, in the same way, I don't think it is possible to know what free creatures will do before they have chosen it. If we are truly free to do either A or B, then I think it would be impossible for God to know. He may know which is more likely, but I don't think he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt. There are some exceptions. I think God does sometimes take away our free will and force us to decide certain things. I think he never does this in the case of salvation, meaning, I think God always allows us to chose our eternal destiny. But I do think if God wants me to go to Arby's tomorrow, God will make me go to Arby's tomorrow. There are tons of places in scripture that seem to indicate that God does not know how a people will choose, when God changes his mind, or God hoped something would happen but it did not. There are other places that seem to disagree. A person must give priority to one or the other, then interpret the one he or she didn't choose in light of the one with priority.
So I think God knows everything that is possible to know, but God does not know those things that are impossible. (Cue the Calvinist argument that I am putting God in a box)
Omnipotence: We also often have a difficult time understanding this word. In principle, I agree that God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful. I think God can do anything he wants to do (so long as it is possible). But that is all too often taken to mean that God is the ultimate micro-manager. God has decreed when I will die, when I will eat next, even when this blog will end. That is not, however, the God that you find in the bible. God allows people to have choice, to do meaningful things, to matter.
So, since this blog is too long as it is, I will stop for today by saying that God could micro-manage in that way, the scripture seems pretty clear that God does not. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, just not in the way all too many people ascribe to him.
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